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MRA’s, PUA’s, and the Santa Barbara Shooter

I have seen numerous articles and Facebook posts about the Santa Barbara Shooter, many of them linking him to Men’s Right’s Activism (MUA) and Pick Up Artists (PUA). In fact many of my friends who are Pagans, Occultists, or Witches have expressed relief that this will bring attention to those two groups.

I have something to say about this connection, but first wanted to give a brief statement about MRA and PUA separately.

On MRA:

I was blissfully unaware of MRA’s until a few years ago. On the surface this seems like a good idea right? I mean, there are areas that men should be looking at insuring rights for. In a world where there are an increasing amount of Dad’s who do primary care for the children, custody of children after divorce is an area that comes to mind. Men get targeted disproportionately by law enforcement for drug crimes. In jobs that deal with children, men often get viewed as more likely to molest despite the large numbers of women now getting caught for doing just that – who receive much lighter sentences when they are convicted. Men who suffer domestic abuse and cannot physically defend themselves without instantly being seen as the abuser. Men falsely accused of rape, or corced into paternity. These things do happen.

Are Mens Rights groups about any of this? No.

Turns out Men’s Right’s Activists are much more about hating women than they are about advocating for themselves. You don’t hear about much about Men at all in fact. You hear a lot about how women should know their place. You hear about “them” taking “our” jobs. You hear a lot about “legitimate rape”, and how rape of drunk or drugged or provocatively dressed, or women who change their mind, or women who wont put out, is not really rape*

If you do hear about these issues, you hear about them in a sort of bizarro reversal. How domestic abuse of men is equal to or even worse than that of women. How rape of men by women is the real scourge of society, both of which is just patently false. You hear about how men are being discriminated against in the workplace by affirmative action – despite all numbers and studies showing that women are still far from even getting a fair shake.

In short, I think these guys are assholes. Fighting for your own rights is great. Being threatened by someone else fighting successfully for theirs is not, and it sure ain’t manly.

ON PUA’S

Though I was married long before “The Game” was published I wrote a bit about Pick Up Artists in The Sorcerers Secrets. Since then I have gotten to know a few, have done some work for a few, and even have been a consultant for a PUA school that wanted to incorporate my methods.

In general I find that most PUA’s fall into one of two categories:

1. Guys that believe men and women are playing a game together, and who would like to learn to play better.

2. Guys that believe men are playing a game where women are the targets.

Guys in the former camp tend to veer away from the creepy NLP, Hypnosis, and Negging garbage; focusing more on “inner game”. These are methods to make yourself more confident, overcome fear of rejection, change your appearance a bit, and generally give a shit a bout yourself. I have seen some PUA’s do more serious spiritual work than a lot of occultist. I guess the potential to get laid is a good motivator.

Other guys that view women as targets to be manipulated are a shame, but really its nothing new. These days these guys meet up in special chatrooms and clubs to discuss this Alpha Male anti-female shite, 75 years ago they didn’t have to because society itself was the chatroom, and the club was pretty much everybody. I would like to see the marginalization of creeps as being a sign of society moving in the right direction.

THE SHOOTER

Ok, with that out of the way all I really wanted to say about the connetion with the Santa Barbara Shooting is this: MRA’s, PUA’s, and any other group you hate is not to blame.

Dungeons and Dragons were not to blame for Christopher Pritchard’s actions.

Marylin Manson and Video Games were not to blame for Eric Harris’s and Dylan Klebold’s actions.

The OTO and Thelema were not to blame for Matthew Murray’s actions.

Satanism and Witchcraft are not to blame for Miranda Barbour’s actions.

As people into occultism, Witchcraft, Magic, etc we often find ourselves defending our paths and beliefs when others who self-identify the same way we do, wind up committing heinous and criminal acts.

All I am saying is that if you don’t like to be treated like you are responsible for encouraging murder then don’t treat others like that. No matter how reprehensible or distasteful I find MRA’s and some PUA’s, I have yet to meet one that encouraged murder or anything close to it.

Anyway, that’s it.

 

 

In case there is some confusion about this: if either party is passed out or near passed out or so out of it that they cannot clearly give consent, its rape. If someone invited you to their bedroom, initiates sex, but after five mintes says  “NO, I CHANGED MY MIND, GET OFF ME” and you don’t get off of them – its rape. Ok? Good. Sex without consent is rape. Consent can be withdrawn.

 

Click Here to Leave a Comment Below 55 comments
Ngawang

It reminds me of Holy Wood, which is easily Marilyn Manson’s darkest album, and the response of the band to the Columbine shootings. From The Nobodies:

“We are the nobodies
Wanna be somebodies
When we’re dead
They’ll know just who we are

We are the nobodies
Wanna be somebodies
When we’re dead
They’ll know just who we are”

Reply
    Ngawang

    Actually, the quote should read:

    “Today I am dirty
    I want to be pretty
    Tomorrow, I know I’m just dirt

    We are the nobodies
    Wanna be somebodies
    When we’re dead
    They’ll know just who we are”

    Reply
Nenad Ristic

Sorry to be the grammar Nazi, but the last sentence is really confusing, I think it should be:
“If someone invites you to their bedroom, takes off all their clothes, and inserts their nether parts into or onto yours then says “NO, GET OFF ME” and you don’t get off – its rape. ”

Anyway, great article, thanks for writing it!

Reply
    Sarow

    I should be get away from me. The word “off” reminds me of me of a Gary and Mike episode where Gary is screaming “Get her Off”

    Reply
Psyche

With all due respect, I disagree. MRAs and PUAs are indicative of a culture that fosters and encourages misogyny. Members of these groups do not see women as people, but as objects. MRAs actively blame women for demanding to be taken seriously as human beings with an equally complex range of emotions, actions, and life choices. PUAs tend to be aggressive, and rarely take no for an answer. They are both a plague on society.

These groups teach, and popular culture further reinforces, that these (usually straight, white) men deserve women. Like a prize, just for showing up. See the myth of the “nice guy,” or the “friendzone.” There is no such thing as either. If a man is nice, women don’t have an automatic obligation to sleep with them, yet this is what the culture teaches.

Women are taught to carry their keys in a way ready to use as a weapon, to tell someone where they’re going for the first few dates, not to leave their drink unattended in a club, to pretend to have a boyfriend (as a man will give up easier if he believes she’s another man’s property), to dress conservatively, not to walk alone at night, and a million other things to protect themselves from unwanted advances, physical assault, and rape. Men, however, are not taught to respect women’s personal space, to let it go if she’s not interested, not to grope, not to rape, to treat women as fellow human beings.

A further note: all of the “problems” MRAs highlight – childcare, profiling, abuse, rape, etc. – are all problems feminism actively challenges and tackles. If MRAs were serious about wanting change, they’d be feminists, not misogynists. Feminism seeks equality on a political, social and economic level. For example, feminism agrees that women aren’t the only people capable of looking after children, and wants to see that responsibility shared. Feminism wants changing tables in men’s washrooms, equal opportunity in the courtroom, and for people not look askance at stay-at-home dads. These problems were not created by women, and pretending these problems are somehow women’s fault, and not the fault of a patriarchal society that seeks to negate and subjugate women, doesn’t serve anyone.

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    Stone Dog

    Men are not taught not to RAPE, and to treat women as fellow human beings? Where did you grow up, a viking horde?
    I am a 32 year old Italian man, and I have most certainly been taught to respect women’s space and value as human beings. So have all of my friends. Many of us certainly have our fair share of prejudices against women’s abilities and modus operandi (just as women have prejudices against men’s), but the kind of abuse you are talking about will very quickly earn you most other men’s contempt, besides getting you in trouble with the law of course.

    I think the post offers a very accurate and balanced view of the subject.

    Women are capable of hate just as men are. They are equally capable of violence too, albeit in a less physical and direct way. And they are MOST CERTAINLY capable of seeing men as objects. In fact, I would argue that women tend to objectify men as disposable sources of income, status and material goods far more often than men objectify women as sources of physical pleasure. But regardless of that, gender is no basis on which to claim higher moral ground.
    There is no such thing as a patriarchal or matriarchal society in the western world. Not anymore. Society is nowadays way too complex for such broad generalizations. Rather, there are areas/levels of society where things seem to follow men’s desires and proclivities more then women’s, and other areas where the opposite is true. Apparently, large human groups are quite capable of falling into opposite mistakes at the same time.

    Actually, I think many problems in western society stem from the fact that most men have been brought up by their mothers and other women, and never had a strong, mature male teacher that could guide them in developing their masculinity to full maturity. During the last 70 years or so, feminism has stigmatized the male qualities to the point that most people can’t draw a clear distinction between manliness and cheesy machismo. And that, I believe, lies very close to the core of many contemporary gender-related issues.

    Sadly, groups like the MRAs and at times the PUAs do in fact foster hate; but I think it’s important to realize they are not ROOTED in hate. They are rooted in the fear, the anger, the insecurity, the emptiness and the grief that a boy feels when he is not allowed to grow into a man. These men aren’t driven by mere lust or contempt; they may be resentful, but at their core, they are deeply wounded. They are wounded because their natural masculinity has been framed as a problem and made to appear like a moral crime, instead of being recognized as something valuable, useful, and indeed necessary to a balanced society.
    As long as core masculine traits (like strength, decisiveness, leadership, initiative, expansiveness, fighting spirit) are ridiculed, stigmatized, looked upon with suspicion and equaled to violence, abuse, presumption and so on, you will see these groups flourish as a reaction.

    I believe the evil that you see in these men is largely a “dark side” of masculinity; it is a “fallen”, twisted masculinity, the result of denying them the right to develop and express their natural “bright” masculinity, the kind of character to which women are universally attracted.

    (Recommended reading on the subject: Iron John, by Robert Bly)

    I find it curious that such a discussion would even arise on this blog; occultism teaches us that dual opposites are equally valuable and necessary, and should be allowed full expression if they are to be integrated and raised to a higher level. That’s what we should aim for when considering the male and female poles, both in society and our individual psyche.

    Reply
      Psyche

      Men are not taught to rape, but they are also not taught not to rape, which is my point. The focus is strictly on moderating women’s behaviour: wear less revealing clothing, don’t walk alone at night, etc. These are the dominant messages in our culture. The focus is almost never on men’s behaviour: don’t shout at women in the streets, don’t honk, don’t grope, don’t dance at women, don’t attempt to intimidate, bully or otherwise harass women. Indeed, entire communities are formed around how to better bully and harass women (MRAs, PUAs).

      I’m going to make the relatively safe assumption that you’re not up on your feminist politics, haven’t been following #YesAllWomen, @EverydaySexism, or any outlet which actively criticizes the way this has been portrayed in the media.

      The difference is, of course, that this behaviour is endemic, while its flip side is a statistical aberration. Not unimportant, and not to be swept under any rug, but to derail the conversation to “what about the menz” and pretend that the effects are anything alike is an insult. It is possible to have a conversation about feminism without resorting to “not all men” and “men suffer too.” No one is negating that, in fact, that’s all anyone ever really talks about. And that’s part of the problem.

      You’re deliberately missing my point, and, I would venture, Jason’s points.

      Further, there are no “core masculine traits” or “core feminine traits,” only what has been socialized. But you’re not really interested in exploring that possibility, are you?

      Reply
        Stone Dog

        “Men are not taught to rape, but they are also not taught not to rape, which is my point.”

        1. I think you misread the first sentence of my post, read it again.

        2. I got your point the first time; you just need to find more meaningful points to make. Because, if you put it like that, have you been taught not to falsely accuse men of rape, or not to coerce men into paternity, just to name two examples from the post? I don’t think you have, not specifically; it is assumed that you understand such things are wrong based on more general moral principles. Same thing with rape.

        “Indeed, entire communities are formed around how to better bully and harass women (MRAs, PUAs).”

        I can’t speak for MRAs, but I think I read a great deal more PUAs materials than you have, and although much of it seems to be immature, manipulative and indeed hostile garbage, some of it actually focuses on
        1. how to attract women by developing yourself into a better person, a man that healthy women would spontaneously be attracted to
        2. how to give women the best possible experience, how to get them and keep them just by making them very happy, which is what healthy men want anyway.
        Therefore, I think your opinion about that group is partly unjustified.

        “I’m going to make the relatively safe assumption that you’re not up on your feminist politics, haven’t been following #YesAllWomen, @EverydaySexism, or any outlet which actively criticizes the way this has been portrayed in the media.”

        You got me. These things are indeed very low in my priorities. Not because I don’t consider them worthy of reflection, mind you, I just have too many other things to take care of.

        “The difference is, of course, that this behaviour is endemic, while its flip side is a statistical aberration.”

        According to whom? Can you quote any neutral sources that support that statement with anything remotely resembling objective data?

        “It is possible to have a conversation about feminism without resorting to “not all men” and “men suffer too.” No one is negating that, in fact, that’s all anyone ever really talks about.”

        Not in my part of the universe, they don’t. I read news websites every day and regularly browse bookstores, which broadly reflect the general culture; articles about women’s problems outnumber articles (and books) about men’s problems at least 10 to 1.

        And I’m not just saying “men suffer TOO”, like, in general; I’m saying men’s suffering is partly due to the very fact that our culture has been denying them the right to be men, largely under the pressure of feminist movements (which I still consider a positive influence in the big picture).
        I’m also saying that the resulting male condition is harmful and frustrating for women themselves, who, having so few examples of healthy masculine men, are lead to conclude that masculinity in itself is problematic; and since they still naturally crave their opposite polarity, this can only lead to deep frustration.

        Which brings me to the real issue, as all other arguments seem to hinge on this one:

        “Further, there are no “core masculine traits” or “core feminine traits,” only what has been socialized. But you’re not really interested in exploring that possibility, are you?”

        Again, you’re right. I am SO not interested. Not any more that I am interested in exploring any “possibility” that has been irrevocably ruled out by an overwhelming amount of scientific facts.
        The idea that feminine and masculine traits derive entirely from outside influences is based on nothing but theoretical speculation. To the contrary, the fact that feminine and masculine traits are innate and grounded in biology is backed up by extensive, easily repeatable scientific research.

        Check out, for example, Louann Brizendine’s books.
        I name her specifically because she is a woman, who originally set out to prove YOUR point, except she only found proof to the exact contrary.

        Of course, we don’t really needed neuropsychiatrists to tell us that. Common sense and intellectual honesty would have done the same in no time. One only needs to look at the animal world. All mammals display marked differences in character and behavior according to gender. Now, the animals’ traits are indisputably innate, unless you want to argue that elephants, tigers, wolves and apes have “patriarchal”, “misogynist” cultures that somehow “socialize” their females into their roles.
        Human beings are animals too, of course. 99% of our being is a biochemical robot. And why oh why would our species be any different from all other mammals in just this regard (and most notably, from other primates)?

        Moreover, dual opposites that can effectively be described as male and female principles are inherent in the very structure of the universe at different levels. The principle that is embodied in the duality of the genders is essentially the same that manifests as the poles of a magnet, or Will and Desire as psychological forces. Everywhere you look, there are forces that “pull”, matched by forces that “push”. All traditional cultures that I know of recognize that aspect of reality more or less explicitly; some of them even have it as a core principle (Daoism).

        Now the real question is: WHAT IS WRONG WITH THAT?

        What is so terrible about being inherently different from one another based on our gender? I can find nothing threatening or harmful in that idea, unless of course you start seeing one of the two opposites as somehow less worthy than the other.
        And there is no denying that many cultures in history have done just that, mostly in favor of the male polarity. Has that affected women’s position in society? Of course, how could it not. Should we try to achieve a more balanced condition? Absolutely. That is STILL no reason to deny such a simple, obvious, and in itself harmless fact. Denial can only delay improvement.

        Reply
          Psyche

          And this exchange, folks, demonstrates precisely why the conversation rarely moves forward.

          A woman makes her argument, and is shouted over.

          A man makes vague claims with no basis in fact, yet expects the woman to do his googling for him. Again.

          A woman gets homework assigned (to read long-discredited authors), but the man confirms his disinterest in furthering his understanding of topics fundamental to this conversation.

          Not all men? Of course not. But enough of them to make exchanges like this typical.

          Reply
          Stone Dog

          Shouted over? As anyone can read above, I only made clear and rational arguments. You clearly didn’t have anything substantial to offer against them, otherwise you would have. Instead, you resort to “poor me, a man isn’t letting me win! what a brute!”. What is typical here, is that a feminist asks us to accept she’s right just because she is a woman, therefore, she MUST be the victim, and it’s rude to even suggest otherwise.

          Reply
jonquil alexia

Well said, Psyche.

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Inominandum

Psyche,

My first question would be: Did you read my post?

On almost all points we are in complete agreement. I agree with everything you said about MRA’s and a good part of my post was a statement of just that. What do you disagree with?

On PUA’s I am sorry but you are wrong to paint them all with one brush. The PUA’s that I know DO take no for an answer. Part of their training is learning to take no for an answer and be ok with it and move on. They are not looking to escape the friendzone like “nice guy” predators, but are in fact quite up front about any intentions from the start and move on if they get told no. They do not view women as a prize for showing up, quite the opposite. I don’t know what kind of experience you have had with PUA’s but we certainly have had a different experience.

Do some PUA’s fall down this rabbit hole of hate? Yes they surely do, and again my post stands against such people. There is even “teaching” material out there that fits the bill, but it is not at all what it started out as and not at all indicative of the whole thing.

And again, you end your post like I am defending MRA’s when I agreed completely that they were not at all serious about such issues and that such issues are not the fault of women. I am scratching my head wondering of you read the post at all.

I still hold that treating them as the cause of the murder spree is problematic and am shocked at how quick we are to link groups we are fighting against with a murder spreem, when we ourselves as occultists and Pagans have suffered from the same unfair equations.

Reply
    Psyche

    Wow. Of course I read your post, did you? Ultimately you’re suggesting that MRAs and PUAs are not to blame for fostering and encouraging Elliot Rodger’s misogyny, but that’s patently false.

    Your response here isn’t helpful either, falling into the “not all men” trap that seeks to downplay the pervasive influence of a seriously harmful group of people.

    The fact is, everyone knows that these things don’t apply to all men, or even (necessarily) all PUAs – and no one is suggesting this. Instead, the focus here ought to be on the harm these sentiments do to women – and yes, all women. Read the comments from MRAs and PUAs on their forums, news articles, Reddit, or Twitter and their responses #YesAllWomen tag – if you can stomach it.

    These aren’t self-help groups, they’re hate groups, and there’s no getting around it.

    Reply
      Inominandum

      I have read the #YesAllWomen tags this morning in fact. It is an amazing show of strength and truth.

      I am not ultimately suggesting anything of the kind.

      First, lets separate these two groups because they have very little in common.

      If you want to say that MRA’s should be looked at for fostering hatred of women, the treatment of women as objects, and foastering misogyny I am with you. If you want to make this a teachable moment because of the shooting then by all means, any opportunity to bring this issue to light is a good one.

      I again draw the line at accusing them of being the primary cause of murder, as if his mental illness, gun culture, and other factors did not play a part.

      On PUA’s, I have to back peddle here for a minute. I have not paid any attention to that community, other than the people I have consulted for, since 2006. Looking at many of the responses, larger factions of it do seem to have gone in a much darker direction and most of the original people have written it off.

      That said, the PUA’s that I am familiar with are the very opposite of what you are saying.

      PUA’s I know are interested in being more intuitive so that they can read signals better. Read Kormans excellent piece on how women are trained by society to be vague. and the impact it has on both genders. http://miniver.blogspot.com/2012/06/consent.html

      PUS’s I know are trained to take rejection in stride and move on rather that letting it devastate them or fixate on one women who has already made it clear she is not interested.

      PUA’s I know are interested in making themselves more interesting and less shy so that they are more attractive to women precisely because you do not simply deserve a woman’s attention, it is earned and a spark must exist.

      Anyway, like I said, as the father of a young daughter these issues are near and dear to my heart, so you can bet that I read the #YesAllWomen tag and support it.Shame on those PUA’s who are making such comments and shame of the MRA’s as a whole.

      I still draw the line at making them the direct cause of a murder spree.

      If you want to make MRA’s the direct cause of many rapes than I agree with you and am happy that they are getting categorized as a hate group overall, but this is not that.

      Reply
      Inominandum

      An article about the difference between Rodger and MRA’s.

      http://freethoughtblogs.com/hetpat/2014/05/25/madman-or-mra-looking-beyond-easy-answers-to-the-santa-barbara-massacre/

      Again, not saying that MRA’s are not completely twisted douchbags – they are. But Rodgers actions are not directly related to them, and especially not to PUA’s who he was adamantly against for promising him other than the hatred he was wallowing in.

      Reply
Fido

I find MRA’s to be a counterpoint to feminists. Neither group is egalitarian, both groups make a few decent points, and there are extremists on both sides. The difference is, feminism is heavily supported by mainstream media. That’s the only real difference between them.
Opposites always give rise to and foster each other.

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    Psyche

    What? Men’s voices dominate the media. The face of the media is an old cis-het white dude.

    Feminism seeks equality with men on a political, social and economic level. Intersectional feminism takes things a step further in seeking political, social and economic equality across race, class, and ability barriers as well. It’s all about equality. That’s it. End game.

    Reply
      Sorcerer

      The problem, dear, is that equality is a myth. You can attempt to mandate equality and make reality conform to your ideology, but that won’t change the reality. This is a deep fact of life that mature people come to grips with. But you sound young, and fresh out of your women’s studies courses, so it will take time. Get back to us in 10 or 20 years, and I’m sure you’ll be singing a different tune. And believe it or not, you’ll probably be a lot happier once you accept that life can never be made into your ideological utopia, and no longer feel the need to lecture people about the evils of their incorrect thoughts. Good luck.

      Reply
        Rose

        “The problem, dear, is that equality is a myth.”

        It certainly is, as illustrated with comments of this nature. Equality will always be a myth as long as “ideals” such as yours continue.

        That is the problem Psyche is pointing out.

        “This is a deep fact of life that mature people come to grips with. But you sound young, and fresh out of your women’s studies courses, so it will take time. Get back to us in 10 or 20 years, and I’m sure you’ll be singing a different tune.”

        I’m curious if you, or any other commenters, were around during the second wave feminism of the 1970’s. Everything Psyche says is accurate. In fact, I’ve been incredibly disheartened to see how much worse things have spiraled since then, rather than improving. Your comment alone, dear, is incredibly demeaning and belittling.

        You basically told her to shut up and sit down, which has been the experience of every single woman I have encountered, including myself… that her thoughts and ideas have no value.

        That was a huge part of her point. Thank you for proving it, dear.

        Reply
          Ulysses

          I’ve been told the same thing a lot. I’m a dude. I think all genders are getting shafted pretty much the same, at least in North America. Just in different ways. I could be wrong. Who the fuck knows?

          I guess see the “us vs. them” meme as an archonic construct to keep us fighting each other instead of empowering each other against the ruling class.

          Reply
          Sorcerer

          No dear, my point is that gender inequality is inherent, the product of millions of years of evolutionary struggle that can’t be wished away by all the feminist ideology in the world. Politics is irrelevant; it’s like calling some one a “colorist” for insisting that the sky is blue.

          The idea that gender inequality is some vast, evil problem is a meme implanted into your mind by the egalitarian cult, which insists that all humans must be equal in every possible way. Maybe it’s this false meme that you need to work on, rather than trying to change the color of the sky?

          Reply
        Rose

        You know, this response is so good in fact, that I can’t decide if this is a joke, or a very calculated reply to prove Psyche’s point using reverse psychology.

        Either way, kudos.

        Reply
Kem

I just want to say (as a person who read most of this guy’s manifesto, yes I did that), this guy had nothing to do with PUA or MRA communities. He was a guy with Asperger’s who had terrible parents (especially father) and incompetent therapists. I read the whole to thing to find out how many times he was rejected. None. Read that again. None. He expected girls to throw themselves to him because “he was a gentleman”, whereas he was a video games geek who thought he was entitled to everything in life. He was the worst type of racist who was jealous of his peers starting kindergarten. Who remembers what happened when they were 7-8-9 and ruminate about it, when they are 22. This guy was a completely deranged individual who was not taken care of properly.

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    Tom

    Oh come now, we all know that all MRA’s/PUA’s are all misogynists just as we all know that all Feminists are exactly like Andrea Dworkin

    The only solution is complete Apartheid, just as Psyche suggests. Round up all Men and deport them to a penal colony, so that wombyn can feel safe.

    To suggest that Rodger acted on anything other than programmed indoctrination from websites with completely rational clarity of mind is hate speech against wombyn.

    Reply
    Sarow

    “This guy was a completely deranged individual who was not taken care of properly.”
    I find many who are hardcore and fanatical supporters of any ideology to be this way in some shape, fashion or degree.

    Reply
    Meself

    “Don’t blame it on PUAs, blame it on autistics and people who were abused by their parents”… I am going to just laugh, and pretend that you’re trolling. It will be better for my own mental health than the alternative.

    Reply
      Kem

      Blaming PUAs, dear Meself, is not different than blaming Marilyn Manson for Columbine. And that’s why the feminist movement has obviously some people akin to conservative nuts. Every shooting has its own circumstances and extrapolating conclusions from one case always end up in unwise generalizations.

      Reply
        Meself

        The issue I take is not with “PUAs have nothing to do with it”. It’s with trying to shift the blame to a neurological condition which has just as little to do with it-a condition that already carries heavy discrimination to the point that the more severe cousins of it have resulted in death by restraints in institutions for many more than is usually acknowledged, with people often not caring based on basically seeing autistic lives as being worth less than neurotypical ones.-see the disgusting sympathy given to parents who kill their children for such, but yet no one implies that being neurotypical makes one inherently homicidal and if it is suggested this would be recognized by most I suspect for the absurdity it is.
        I think feminism tends too much to a “some are more equal than others” viewpoint. Which isn’t to say thre issues of women should be ignored, but rather that they should be embraced by the wider class-based movement of all the oppressed and excluded. Otherwise you see what we have now, reforms meant primilarly to the benefit of upper-middle and higher class women/blacks/gays/any-excluded-group while the ‘lower class’ members of said groups never get a seat at the rtable or any concern at all for their issues; in fact, every ‘reform’ just increases the contempt and exclusion faced by such members(I remember reading a news article once about a women who stopped giving a dollar on occasion to a homeless black guy who dwelt near her place of work when Obama was elected. Because obviously the ability of some to attain exalted positions in the bourgeois class means that no members of their group can face any real issues of any sort).

        Reply
ConjureMan Ali

One of the many things that I appreciate about your blog, Jason, is that you go beyond just magic and tackle social issues that always get interesting conversation going. Even if things get heated, it is nice to see exchange happening.

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Inominandum

I just received a very uplifting message from someone I had been debating on FB about this very post and my definition of Rape that I give at the end. The comments in that thread caused him to read the #YesAllWomen tags and he was shocked into changing his mind.

So it really does my heart good that these things matter and do change minds.

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Inominandum

I never fail to find the reaction of men to this topic shocking.

To be clear, Psyche and I may disagree on the relationship between MRA’s and PUA’s to the murder, and on the nature of the PUA thing entirely (though I see upon further inspection it is drifting further away from what it once was and into MRA territory as a whole), but this does not mean I disagree with her overall.

Men do not have it as bad as women. Men should stop co-opting the argument to be about themselves (I feel that discussing a single group that has been singled out is NOT the same as falling into the #notallmen trap). The idea that we are discriminated against anywhere near as women are is so completely wrong-headed I cannot even fathom how anyone could come to that conclusion.

Please read the #YesAllWomen tag on twitter.

Please watch this video http://vimeo.com/86495492

Please try to get a clue gents.

And if you DO try to argue the point, don’t do it by accusing Psyche of just coming out of a womens studies course, or any other personal attack. Try to make your points. In this case she has been in the community for some time and has a well thought out position on just about everything I have ever spoken with her about in the past. But thats besides the point – I don’t care if she is a 16 year old girl who IS just out of a womens studies class. Dismissing the “youth” is not winning your argument, it makes it look like you don’t have a real argument but want to defend yourself anyway.

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    Ulysses

    I think everyone’s getting the shaft. This whole “who is getting more shafted” thing just doesn’t sit right with me. Regardless of gender. It just doesn’t seem productive. It seems unimportant who has it worse. I dunno, what am I missing here? I’d love to have a dialogue without getting pissed on.

    Reply
      Inominandum

      But that’s it. You are not getting pissed on. No one is pissing on men. It is women asserting their rights and the ways that those rights have been denied to them.

      Men and Women do not both get the shaft. It is not a matter of the same things being done to both genders but one gets it worse. As the saying goes, when a man goes on a date he is afraid of getting laughed at or rejected, when a woman goes out on a date she is afraid of getting raped and killed.

      Start with the #YesAllWomen Tag.

      Move to the video I posted.

      Go to this article http://helzfeminism.blogspot.com/2014/04/not-all-men.html

      Then get back to me if you are serious about a dialogue. I promise you no golden showers.

      Reply
        Ulysses

        Sorry, I wasn’t clear. I didn’t think you were coming at me. What I see though in this online discussion is a distinct rejection of opposing viewpoints. No one on either side is really making an effort to bridge the gap. If anyone says something in this discussion which is perceived as wrong shit goes cray and now we have like a mini fight. It just doesn’t seem productive.

        I’m aware that women have it bad. Especially in developing countries. My wife of 11 years has had me read feminist literature. I get it. I don’t deny it. It’s fucked for women. But with my wife, there’s a back and forth and a lack of drama when we discuss this. I think it’s because we allow for various viewpoints without assuming one worldview has it all figured out. And she lets me discuss my challenges as a man without diminishing them or dismissing them or telling me to go watch videos before I can add to the discussion. I could turn that around and say y’all need to watch this video and read that article before saying anything else. That strikes me as a discussion stopper. My wife too has come to the conclusion that men face their own challenges and that just tugging on one side of the debate doesn’t lead anywhere. I’d love to have more discussions with women on what each others challenges are but it doesn’t seem to happen a lot (which btw, none of the makes in this discussion or even most places online have talked about my angle). The issue is so charged! And it doesn’t feel like a safe environment for discussion. Thus, people just fling shit. It’s offensive/defensive debating. It just doesn’t go lead anywhere productive.

        Who has it worse? Does it matter? Does determining this help in any way? I’m not sure it does. We’re all in this together is what I keep thinking to myself. We all need support.

        I don’t care too much what’s true here, statistics get manipulated, evidence gets cherry picked. It’s a very complex thing and it’s difficult to parse. It’s tough to wrap my mind around the whole picture. Hence why I think we should all just calm down and not be so… I dunno, hard line? And more welcoming of opposing viewpoints. It just seems more practical. I dunno, I may be out of line.

        Fuck this is so complicated. I thought of not saying anything but that just seemed, I dunno, chicken shit or something. So now here I am, embroiled in a thing I don’t understand and have been trying to understand for about ten years and I still don’t. The only thing I feel relatively certain of is that we’re not getting anywhere with this victimhood one-upmanship.

        Fyi: I’m not into the whole MRA and PUA thing. Just, that seems like it might be relevant. I feel that cognitive liberty is the root issue here. So, that’s my angle I guess.

        BTW: I emailed my bio re, the apprenticeship program but haven’t heard back. Now that I have you on the line I figured I’d ask about it.

        Reply
          Inominandum

          But thats just it, this was NOT a discussion about men vs women and who had it worse. YOU brought that up. YOU made it about who is the worse victim. That is not what the conversation was about until you framed it that way.

          When a woman stands up and says I want to discuss this issue and how it effects women, men immediately chime in with how bad they have it, and not all men are like that. THAT IS NOT THE CONVERSATION.

          It happens in race to. Talk about struggles that black people face as a people and some white due immediately stands up and says that his Grandfather had it tough too. Thats flipping the script. It was not about black vs white, it was about black struggles.

          The very fact that when women or racial minorities stand up for their rights it tiggers White men to jump to defense and re-frame it as an attack on them IS PART OF THE PROBLEM.

          You are not alone. I have done the same thing myself, but it is not helpful to anyone. I sent links so that it would not be an argument.

          I am e-mail everyone about apprenticeships tomorrow BTW. You are very near the top of the list.

          Reply
Inominandum

But thats just it, this was NOT a discussion about men vs women and who had it worse. YOU brought that up. YOU made it about who is the worse victim. That is not what the conversation was about until you framed it that way.

When a woman stands up and says I want to discuss this issue and how it effects women, men immediately chime in with how bad they have it, and not all men are like that. THAT IS NOT THE CONVERSATION.

It happens in race to. Talk about struggles that black people face as a people and some white due immediately stands up and says that his Grandfather had it tough too. Thats flipping the script. It was not about black vs white, it was about black struggles.

The very fact that when women or racial minorities stand up for their rights it tiggers White men to jump to defense and re-frame it as an attack on them IS PART OF THE PROBLEM.

You are not alone. I have done the same thing myself, but it is not helpful to anyone. I sent links so that it would not be an argument.

I am e-mail everyone about apprenticeships tomorrow BTW. You are very near the top of the list.

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    Ulysses

    This is something to think about. I’ll have to re-read everything again and think about it for a few days.

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miyamoto musashi

Wow I am dissapointed by your biast report of the MRA’s there are several different groups. There is also the Avfm. This is typical of the occult community to take the extreem left marxist ideology that poisoned witchtraft in the 60’s by Z.Budapest. PLease do some more research, yes some of them can be man haters, but like they said, there are extreem feminists who declare mass murder of 90 percent of the worlds men and if you think there a fringe group, there not the majority of feminist leaders are like that. Try – Girl writes what one u-tube – feminism is socialism in panties. A lot of feminist support communism, which if it got into power, witchcraft and the occult would be band too- keep in mind that franz bardon was killed by socialists and communists- not right wingers, I used to believe that the right was all bad – because of the religous right, but there is also , freedom and liberty of individuality- though jason I did like that you did bring up the main concerns that are serious legal issues, for men. Marxism is also very athiestic, and it has influenced withcraft in the 60’s, thats why I am looking back at occult stuff before then. Another good watch is yuri beznemov – politcal subversion. Also check out Erin Pizzey who opened the first womens shelter and the shocking truths she reveals about feminism, trust me a lot of women do not like feminism either, more then was previously known

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miyamoto musashi

Seriously your taking the side of yes all women, wow your were my last hope of the men in the occult community, well put aside I still like your books and methods of magick.

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    Inominandum

    I am exhausted by all this so this is the last I am responding.

    #YesAllWomen is not a “side”. There is no war. It is women talking about real things that happen to them. The fact that men immediately feel threatened by this, jump to the not all men defense, and try to either shut it down or frame it into a battle against men is exactly what has gotten me so vocal on the issue.

    Of course there is a dark side to feminism. There is a dark side to EVERYTHING. I am no fan of Z Budapest.

    My distaste for MRA’s comes from the fact that they do amazingly little about the issues I raise above and instead focus on combating feminism, preaching that date rape is not a real problem, or other insane things.

    I just went to AVFM as you suggested and again, 90% of what is there has nothing to do with furthering the issues I mention, but is devoted to combating feminism.

    This is not very different than groups of White men who claim to be defending their rights, but who only seem concerned with combating initiatives of groups that support minorities.

    Any time a group that is the majority, or has been the holder of power, needs to speak for their own rights they have the DUTY to be more dilligent, more respectful, and tread with more care than other groups precisely because of the power, status, and privilege that they have enjoyed for literally all of human history until the last few decades.

    I appreciate that you like my books and methods. I appreciate you as a reader and contrinbutor, but this is an area that we disagree VERY strongly on.

    Reply
Sarow

“precisely because of the power, status, and privilege that they have enjoyed for literally all of human history until the last few decades”
What about backlash?
How can it be handled so it doesn’t create a situation worse then what was before?

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Psyche

The last comment I sent with a link didn’t get approved, but perhaps you’ll see this in your filter at least. I wrote a more detailed post about my problems with PUAs, MRAs and why feminism is important this post: “We need to talk about misogyny and sexism.”

Thought it might be of interest.

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    Inominandum

    I will go in and look for your comment. There was nothing of yours that I did not approve, so it must have gotten caught in a spam bot or something.

    Reply
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