Pirates & Publishers

Jack over at Dionysian Atavism posted a response to an Andrieh Vitimus post about Piracy. Now pretty much everyone has weighed in with opinions one way or the other. See Don Michael Kraig, Mike Cecchetelli, Frater RO, the list goes on.

I was going to Hyperlink to everyone above, and more, but The Laughing Magus, has already provided an exhaustive list of links. Just go there.

Usually I don’t comment on the piracy arguments, but if you look closely at Jack’s, Mike’s, and Andrieh’s arguments – there are other issues here as well. So, here we go:

PIRACY

Speaking strictly about the file sharing of books that are currently in print and available. I really just wish people on both sides would stop debating it endlessly.

For the people who argue against it:

It is not going to stop.
It is not, strictly speaking, simple theft. You downloading a copy of my book does not make a copy disappear off a shelf anywhere.
Bringing attention to the issue with your argument likely causes just as many people to give illegal downloading a try because “everyone does it” as it does convince people not to do it.
I am not convinced that it actually negatively effects sales. Amazon selling books at near cost and using their muscle to get publishers to lower their price to unreasonable levels does more to hurt the industry than piracy does. Pirates just make a sexier excuse AND its not bood business sense to complain about the people moving 70% of your product.
Most people, even those who complain, have done it to one extent or another. For instance The final chapter of Donald Michael Kraig’s book Modern Sex Magic does not publish the text, but is based off of a pirated copy of Emblems and Modes of Use that appeared in a Mezlim newsletter that was distributed at festivals in the summer of 1985. I know this because it was part of the Genesis of the Chthonic Auranian Temple, and my initiator was the one that supplied the document, whose copyright is owned by the OTO. In light of his recent comments, I wonder what he would say about this?

For the people who argue for it.

C’mon dude. You know its not right. You also know it’s not the end of the freaking world, so you do it anyway. Just man up, and do what you are gonna do despite that fact that it is unethical.
No, really, that’s all I got. Stop pretending that you have a right to it. Stop pretending that the technological capability makes it ok. You are doing something ever so slightly to the left side of the ethical line. If you are gonna do it, be a man (or woman) about it and just accept what you are doing.

PUBLISHERS

One of the arguments set forth by Jack, and further expressed by Mike Cecchetelli, is that certain publishers produce so much crap that it is ok to or at least understandable to pirate in order to know that you are getting good stuff.

Leaving the piracy aside, I have never looked at publishers as the arbiter of what is good or not. The way that publishers have become gangs that you belong to and are defined by is kind of a weird concept.

I am the only strictly practical magic author at New Page. Most of what they do is Paranormal and New Age. But honestly: they treat me well, they let me write the books the way I want to, they DO fact check (questioned me a lot on the math and policy statements I made in FS), they have decent distribution, good PR people, and pay me the industry standard. I am happy with them. I have never felt “defined” by them and find it really odd that people are looking at who an author publishes with as being almost more important than what the author has to say himself. As much as I respect Jack, and Mike (and they both have my overwhelming respect as occultists, mages, scholars, and gentlemen of noble quality) I think this is total bullshit.

Mike lists SI, Nephilim, Teitan, and Hadean as quality publishers that care about what they publish. I would add Three Hands, trident, Xoanon, and a host of others to the list. BUT, those publishers are still small in terms of distribution and some things of quality are meant for a larger audience. Also, I wonder where they will be 10 years down the road as they grow and attract more authors.

When New Falcon started up, they published only what was then the hippest stuff – some of which looks like crap by today’s standards. Weiser was the publisher of choice for serious Thelemites, but they are currently the exact people that are publishing Christian Day. That does not lower the value of other authors they publish like Lon DuQuette or Draja Mickaharic.

Andrieh has reported publicly that people have treated his book like shit because it is from Llewellyn. That truly is a shame. I mean, with today’s tools for previewing legally, viewing people lists of good reads and essential books, reviews that come out the moment a book is released, etc, etc – you really need the author to be with the “cool” publisher?

We are going to deal with what is good and to whom in another post, as that is yet another facet of this. But it’s my bed-time 🙂

Click Here to Leave a Comment Below 26 comments

Al Billings

Hyperlinks? Am I supposed to go google for these sites to find them? 🙂

Al Billings

Nevermind. I went and dug.

Rose Weaver

“Just man up… you know it’s unethical.”

No, actually I don’t. Did you read everyone’s thoughts on this issue? Did you really? Just “man up” and wade through everyone’s thoughts because they are of value.

Copying CD’s, movies onto VHS tapes, etc… I suppose that’s unethical as well? I think it’s about time authors get over themselves and learn how to shift with the times.

And perhaps credit everyone weighing in, and as suggested, provide links. It’s getting really old taking the time to provide a thoughtful analysis of various issues which affect ALL of us, current authors and future authors, and not being credited. Possibly it’s because I’m no “big wig” like you … yet … but seriously, it is getting incredibly old.

Upset? Yeah, I am. Why? Because not only do I bust my butt with my work like everyone else in this arena, I know others for whom I stand up within my blog personally, and yet consistently receive no credit for standing beside them, let alone the work I do… which let’s face it… is cutting edge. Perhaps it’s because what I do doesn’t fall into anyone’s particular brand of “tradition” that I continue to get blown off, I don’t know, but come on, dude… some respect for a woman who’s been working her Arte for 30+ years is still in order, wouldn’t you say?

Inominandum

First things first Rose, I will grab links and insert them into the post. I made the post late and got lazy. However, do NOT accuse me of not crediting people. I do not refer to people as “the blogger”. I used everyone’s name that I mentioned.

Did I mention you? No.

The reason is simple. I was commenting on Jacks Original post the day it was made. I saw DMK’s post the day it came out. This has been going on all week. I mentioned those people whose posts I knew about.

YOU MADE YOUR POST YESTERDAY. ON A SUNDAY. THE SAME DAY I MADE MINE.

I mean, Jesus Christ, I don’t live on the fucking net. I put the kids to bed. I did my meditations. I made a post. So don’t get pissy with me that I didn’t mention your post! It’s not my fault that you were late to the party. I did’nt mention Laughing Magus either, who has been kind enough to wrap all the links together, because again, I did not even know about it when I wrote this.

Also, the “big wig” comment was a cheap shot. I have NEVER tried to pull rank or authority in an argument based on me being an author, a blogger, an initiate of whatever, or anything else that you might be projecting on me.

Now, as to the actual argument here: yes I have read everyones points. Mike C is ALSO not saying piracy is OK. For that matter Jack himself is not saying Piracy is OK, and has said so on several occasions. You can point to all the DVD’s you ended up buying in the end after viewing copies of them, but the reality is that
1. It is different than distributing things on the massive scale that the internet allows.
2. The only reason that it does not negatively effect sales is that it is illegal, and copyright does exist, otherwise the author would be cut out entirely when individual stores start printing their own copies of things like they do in Nepal.

Both RO and I have had our books illegally printed and sold at festivals without either of us seeing a dime for those sales. Ask him how he feels about it.

Rose Weaver

You’re right. I went off without merit. I’m upset for all the wrong reasons and do apologize. I do hope you accept my apology. For what it’s worth, I’ve never used P2P sharing, nor have I purchased anything copied and sold at any festival. The work I happen to have has been provided via on line libraries which have scanned work no longer held under any copyright, or links to work also no longer copyrighted.

My arguments are basically from a “devil’s advocate” point of view, and I do believe they are valid. I make these points simply because as technology has changed, so has the view of consumers as well as the law. As I stated, already various Courts have sided with those sharing under what is known as the “Fair Use Defense”, based on the “Fair Use” clause in the copyright laws.

I’m also an artist. Some of my work is on the internet. I have to accept the fact that some people have downloaded it and are using it for wallpaper and screen savers. At first, I didn’t like this because I’m a firm believer in copyright and believed I lost money. However, I’ve come to understand that should my work once again be widely shown, it would more likely sell now because it’s been exposed to a much wider audience. The only issue I would have is if my work showed up on a billboard, T-shirt, or other form which was being sold by another party who was making money without sending me the proper royalties.

This is the issue I see you and RO are dealing with and expressing your thoughts on. I can see your point. However, this isn’t the on line piracy being discussed. No one makes money with P2P sharing, and the fact of the matter is, the majority of those who share work of this nature are more ethical than you give them credit. They’ll purchase work they like, delete work they don’t. You end up making more money in these cases.

Though I understand your feelings with paper copies being sold illegally, this isn’t what is being discussed.

Again, my apologies. My anger isn’t towards you, but was directed your way. That was wrong.

Rose Weaver

BTW, “late to the party” is an unfair statement. I’ve read Jack’s blogs the day each was posted and I’ve been attempting to have a dialog with DMK since the day he posted. I replied with an excellent counter-point. It hasn’t been made public while other comments have.

I don’t care for censorship. This was the source of my anger. I have something of value to add and my voice is being censored.

“Late to the party” just isn’t appropriate.

Inominandum

It was unfair. I was kind of reacting to your comments.

Of course I accept the apology and hope you accept mine as well for the “late to the party” comment.

You kind of treat my comments like they are stridently anti-pirating though. Take another look at my comments. I listed five reasons that people should stop whining about it.

I only listed one that was targeted at the pro-piracy crowd. I understand your arguments – I just find them unconvincing.

Rose Weaver

Of course; apology accepted. I respect you and your work very highly. Your work has helped me immensely, as has RO’s, Jack’s, VI’s, and so many others. And there are valid points on both side of this issue, which is why I feel it is time for the issue to be seriously discussed.

Will everyone agree? No, certainly not. I still struggle with it, but am attempting to look at all sides as objectively as possible.

I think the only thing which troubles me is the idea of a publisher being “black listed” for the type of work they publish, and perhaps this is the one aspect of my argument with which you disagree, for there are more aspects than simply this one. I understand your point about how some very good authors are being ignored, or perhaps devalued is a better word, due to who they chose as a publishing house.

This may not be fair, but it does happen.

And with what just happened with censorship by DMK on the Llewellyn blog, I’m more firmly in that camp. I’m far less likely to purchase any book from that publisher now, more than ever. It’s sad, because I did come across a book on dream work which looked interesting enough for me to read… at least to get a better hold on that author’s take and possible level of understanding on the subject. However, now I won’t touch it.

This situation has effectively poisoned the well, so to speak. The publisher, and all representing that publisher, should conduct themselves in a manner which is above reproach should they wish to point fingers towards others about “ethics”, and the possible lack thereof.

It is quite possibly for this reason others have distanced themselves from writers who publish with certain publishing houses. I’m wondering if this should be considered, as it has been brought up within the discussion at hand.

Inominandum

Well clearly DMK treated you and others badly.

Again, this is something that I find odd, since an entire chapter of one of DMK’s books is based off a Pirated copy of Emblems and Modes of Use…

solxyz

Like you, I find these endless discussions of piracy tiresome, but you raise an issue touching on another matter which I think is very interesting. “You know its not right. … Just man up, and do what you are gonna do despite that fact that it is unethical.” Ive seen you reason in this way several times in the past, but to me this seems to gloss over a very interesting and important question: what to do when there is a disparity between our formal, verbal ideas about what is right and what we feel like we want to do anyway.

The way I see it, if its really not right, then we really shouldnt do it. If we still want to do a certain thing despite an internal lecture telling us that it is wrong, then we should stop to reflect and try to see where the disparity is coming from. Maybe we’re stuck in some kind of compulsive or addictive frame-of-mind, and we should use this decision as an opportunity to assert self-mastery. Maybe our perspective on the world has become very self-centered and our own needs/desires are eclipsing any questions of the greater good. Or maybe, our old ideas about what is right and wrong are actually misformed, and our gut knows something that our head hasnt yet realized.

I think that the last option is actually what is going on for a number of pirates, who might be willing to agree that what they are doing is shady. As Dionysian Jack describes, this is new technology, and it seems that our ethical codes have not yet caught-up (which is why everyone wants to talk about it). If its true that piracy is not playing a significant role in preventing authors from creating new valuable work, and it is also allowing more people to access that information, then it might be an over-all good thing. We would actually have to be more specific about the conditions under which it is good, but that is enough to make my general point.
I also think that the second principle, loss of empathy for the common good, may be playing a role, since piracy is something that occurs in a context where our experience of the other people involved is quite mediated and “virtual,” and so their perspectives can start to seem rather unreal and unimportant.

V.V.F.

“I have never felt ‘defined’ by them and find it really odd that people are looking at who an author publishes with as being almost more important than what the author has to say himself.”

I don’t think that’s the argument being made. I believe the problem being described here is that occult and neopagan publishing are not, generally, trustworthy genres. The fact that a handful of publishers are demonstrably responsible for that state of affairs at present, is really just a footnote. You may not like the idea that someone, not knowing anything about you or your work, would have absolutely no reason to give it the benefit of the doubt. But that’s the way it is, unfortunately. Obviously, that isn’t your fault as an author – you, as an individual, didn’t create this situation. But it’s the situation we’re all in.

Ngawang

Something to consider – would crappy pop music exist without copyright protection? If you understand why that question is significant, then you also understand why it’s not nearly as simple as “just manning up” and admitting that piracy is wrong.

To wit: Copyright functions as a subsidy by changing a non-rivalrous, non-excludable good to one which is still non-rivalrous but which is exclusive, so that authors can make money from their work. In other words, copyright might give us your books, but it also gave us Left Behind. If you look back, there were just a lot fewer crap books before copyright because the lack of income from a book meant that the author actually had to love what he was doing.
Another problem is that authors and their estates have a strong incentive to continually extend the period of the copyright so that, in this country, we have gone from a copyright which lasted for a few years after the work was produced to one that is now damn-near eternal in length. That’s a problem.

Inominandum

And for the record, it really is not like people get into writing occult books because they think they are going to get rich, No one is buying a mansion in the Maldeves from putting out their books on Sorcery, Witchcraft and Magic. The people that do it, do it because they love it.

Or as one of your dredded pop songs would say:

“Its not about the Cha Ching Cha Ching. It’s not about the Ba-Bling Ba-Bling.”.

Inominandum

No. It’s not a problem.

I LIKE crappy pop music.

LOTS of people LIKE the left behind books.

People LIKE Harry Potter, but if you notice – it ain’t well written.

Your argument is basically that people make things that you do like should not be able to make a living doing them because the things you don’t like shouldn’t exist.

That is the biggest load of BS yet.

I LOVE what I do. I put a lot of work and love into it but when I got into my 30′s two things happened: I realized that there is only so much time and energy, and as I wanted to have a family and reasonable middle-class life I would need to either:
A) Severely limit, or give up my activities in favor of more lucrative ventures.
B) Get serious and make a living out of doing what I loved.

Never underestimate the power of a check and a deadline to stoke the fires of creativity and passion. The work I have done in the past 5 years has been infinitely better than the work I did previously, which amounted to some articles and screwing around with magazines and webpages.

And what the hell are you talking about “before copyright”. Before the Berne convention of 1886? Yeah man, that was the fucking golden age, when the literacy rates and work protections were so low that only the elite had time to read and half the populace did’nt even know how.

So far, the arguments on each side have been intelligent and reasoned to one degree or another, but now you want me NOT to make a money because you can’t cope with looking at copies of Left Behind and listening to Call Me Maybe?

You sir, can just get bent.

Ngawang

Um, wow.

Ngawang

When I see someone who extols meditation fly off the handle like this, I’m always troubled by an emotion that falls halfway between being quite amused and quite disconcerted.

Ngawang

Now, to address what you said, the world before the 19th century wasn’t perfect. It isn’t perfect now. It was in the midst of the largest explosion of human creativity that the world had ever seen and there were lots of rough edges. HOWEVER, Homer, Ovid, and Chretien de Troyes all (quite literally) sang for their supper, and left the world with lasting treasures. Aristotle and Plutarch never got a cent for what they wrote. Charles Dickens and William Shakespeare both wrote for the commercial market, and made money without copyright. Copyright isn’t necessary, because authors who wanted to make money before the advent of copyright did, and those who didn’t want to weren’t effected. Further, copyright isn’t just because there’s no way you can legtimitately own something that isn’t physical. So, the ball is in your court. You can make some sort of reply, blow up again, or ignore me. Either way, your rant above in response to what I think were fairly diplomatic and measured statements has made me lose quite a lot of respect for you.

Inominandum

First, I did not fly off the handle. I saw a ngawang act like a thom-yor and decided to poke some fun at him.

Or, lets put it this way: you went on an authors blog and complained that authors should not make money. Did you think you would get a positive reaction?

I mean come on.

Second. I do extol meditation. And I also freely admit that I dont get to meditate as much as I would like. BUT, if you think meditation is there to just erase all emotion you are quite mistaken. This dead from the neck down archetype that people seem to have of meditators never ceases to amuse me. You should have met Kunzang Dorje or Chimed Rigdzin.

Aristotle taught to Alexander the Great, so I think he was pretty set.

Plutarch was from a rich family and worked as a priest, magistrate, and an archon – probably would have loved to be able to make money from writings, we will never know…

Shakespeare made money by performing his plays for a commercial audience, not by primarily by their publication.

Dickens is a GREAT example. He was, apart from being a novelist and a reporter a…

wait for it….

THE MOST VOCAL ADVOCATE FOR COPYRIGHT LAWS OF HIS DAY.

He sued people over the pirating of A Christmas Carol because England had passed copyright laws in 1844. He chastized Americans for not having laws that would have protected writers like Sir Walter Scott from facing bankruptcy and dying in poverty. If only he had a way to get royalties from all the re-prints of his work.

So, again. to re-cap.

1. If you want to come on an authors blog and tell him that authors should not make money, perhaps you should not be so touchy about the response.

2. The ghost of Charles Dickens wants his goddamn money.

3. Get bent.

Ngawang

Does the ghost of Charles Dickens accept kar sur?

inominandum

He would appreciate some Kar sur for sure. He is actually quite a restless ghost since the crown pulled him away from his family tomb in Highgate and placed him in Westminster.

Reader

I, for one, enjoyed the post- I thought it was well written, to-the-point and without the subtle flavour of high-pitched jingoism associated with that particular debate.

On the other hand, interpreting an impassioned internet response to an impassioned internet response concerning an impassioned internet debate as a personal failing of that person but one which is EVEN WORSE because said person meditates and therefore fails even MORE because he SHOULD KNOW BETTER seems hurtful, snide and immature to my innocent bystander perspective.

MeMyselfandI

I am entertained by posts like these. Theft is being defined by a culture of spoiled rotten babies that think they are entitled to some one else’s work gratis. Intellectual dishonesty seems OK so long as it justifies stealing.

There is no such thing as a professional writer or musician anymore. They have taken their toys and gone home. Writing takes an education, time, great effort and money. The pros aren’t doing it anymore. Music requires an education as well, and strings cost money, as does recording gear and the time required to hone ones craft.

So the end result is published crap by supposed “experts” who haven’t done the work they write about and lack the experience of recognizing the subtlety of the Work. You get music that sounds like absolute crap from individuals that only care about being rock-stars in their own minds, live at home with their parents and doesn’t recognize a C from an F.

We live in a world of mediocre shit. But that’s alright, as long as you are able to get the shit for free.

This is a generation of retards.

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Pirates & Publishers

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